The theory and practice in JAG3D (Geodäsie/Vermessung)
almide, Friday, 26.04.2013, 22:28 (vor 4229 Tagen)
My name is Alexander.
I train students of adjustment calculus in Polotsk the state university (Belarus).
We wish to use your program for instruction in the capacity of an instance of "German" geodesic school.
By our rules the web is adjusted manually with calculation of performances for a quality control, and then mustered by an evaluation under the program. At job with the program there were many problems. Some managed to be solved most, but some it was not gained.
It would be desirable to start from following problems:
1. We have started to work with JAG3D likely from the previous version. One week ago have downloaded v. 3.4.2013418. Having taken the design prepared in the previous version and having made evaluations in the new version have noticed that discrepancies in evaluations from 2 to 4 signs after a comma that is explicitly unacceptable. Tell that we could not consider in installations? (The project I can send)
2. In Java Graticule 3D - Report - General, it is written Average redundancy rm = u / (n+d) when should be
rm = f / (n+d), or I do not fathom something?
3. Is not gained to compute in any way under the presented formulas Kprio Kpost for а=0,05 and f=5. Kprio for m=1 have computed (it is used Matlab) other values - are not gained. Can other formulas or still that I do not know?
I will be very glad for the help. Alexander.
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Friday, 26.04.2013, 23:34 (vor 4229 Tagen) @ almide
Hi Alex,
1. We have started to work with JAG3D likely from the previous version. One week ago have downloaded v. 3.4.2013418. Having taken the design prepared in the previous version and having made evaluations in the new version have noticed that discrepancies in evaluations from 2 to 4 signs after a comma that is explicitly unacceptable. Tell that we could not consider in installations? (The project I can send)
Please make your project available and give me some details about the network (settings, uncertainties etc.). Do you know your older version of JAG3D?
Taking the example from the comparison of different adjustment tools, I've got the same results:
2. In Java Graticule 3D - Report - General, it is written Average redundancy rm = u / (n+d) when should be
rm = f / (n+d), or I do not fathom something?
There is an error in the English version of the report. The equation is rm = 1-u/(n+d) = f / (n+d) see the German version. Thanks for your hint. I will correcting the HTML-template with the next update. The value itself is correct.
3. Can other formulas or still that I do not know?
JAG3D use Baarda's B-method cf. Hahn, Heck, Jaeger, Scheuring (1989/99), Ein Verfahren zur Abstimmung der Signifikanzniveaus für allgemeine Fm,n-verteilte Teststatistiken−Teil I/II, ZfV or Aydin, Demirel (2004), Computation of Baarda’s lower bound of the non-centrality parameter for details.
regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
almide, Sunday, 28.04.2013, 15:13 (vor 4227 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hi Micha,
I send the file with data via email.
1. Calculations manually in Matlab under known formulas to 6 signs after a comma coincide with calculations in version 3.3.20130114, and differ even in 2 sign in the version
3.4.201304118 (see more low). The high-rise network, 9 measurements of 5 superfluous measurements an α = 0,05, β = 0,8 was adjust. It is clear that so should not be. Then that I have not considered?
and
2. Me interests how to calculate only Kprio = F(m,∞,1-α), Kpost = F(m,f-m,1-α). Using statistical tables of F-distribution of Fisher or corresponding functions for distribution from Matlab, for m=1, 2, 3, f=5 and α = 0,05 for a network from an example it is had
Kprio = F(1,∞,1-0,05)= 3,841 – True Kpost = F(1,5-1,1-0,05) = 7,709 – Not true. Kprio = F(2,∞,1-0,05)= 2,996 – Not true Kpost = F(2,5-2,1-0,05) = 9,552 – Not true. Kprio = F(3,∞,1-0,05)= 2,605 – Not true Kpost = F(3,5-3,1-0,05) = 19,164 – Not true.
Why? What do I do not so and how it is necessary?
regards
Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Sunday, 28.04.2013, 20:25 (vor 4227 Tagen) @ almide
bearbeitet von MichaeL, Sunday, 28.04.2013, 20:57
Hi,
1. Calculations manually in Matlab under known formulas to 6 signs after a comma coincide with calculations in version 3.3.20130114, and differ even in 2 sign in the version
I got the same results in v3.3 and v3.4, if I estimate your levelling network, because you are using individual uncertainties. Therefore, the distances are not used to build the stochastic model (click on the picture to enlarge).
To use the distance dependent stochastic model, I remove the individual uncertainties. Here, I can reproduced the differences. I check the changes in the source code. There was a wrong reference, which I fixed now in version v3.4.20130428. Now, the results are equal to each other. Thank you very much! (click on the picture to enlarge)
2. Me interests how to calculate only Kprio, Kpost.
Once again, JAG3D applies Baarda's B-method to estimate these values. The α
-value is adapted w.r.t. β
and the non-centrality parameter λ
.
Using Matlab the critical values is given by the non-central F-distributon e.g. α = 0.1%
, β = 80%
, m1 = 3
, m2 = ∞
:
ncfinv(1-0.8, 3, 1000000, (norminv(1-0.001/2)+norminv(0.8))^2)
The function fcdf
can be used to get the adapted α
.
kind regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
almide, Monday, 29.04.2013, 10:31 (vor 4226 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hello Mischa
Thanks for the help though all the same it turned out nothing with versions. I loaded 2013428, I established accuracy as in drawing and I received again too most instead of that that at you in drawing where everything is identical and as in Matlab.
On formulas through noncentral F-distribution received all sizes, except one:
m=3, f=5, b=0.8 a=0.05
I 1.689, at you have an infinity. Why?
Tell, whether it is possible to load into the page of a forum drawings and if it is possible how?
Let's make a fresh start
Yours faithfully Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Monday, 29.04.2013, 17:35 (vor 4226 Tagen) @ almide
Hi Alex,
I received again too most instead of that that at you in drawing where everything is identical and as in Matlab.
Here two screenshots from JAG3D. The first one shows the raw-data tables. Notice, the σ0
-column should be empty, if you want to use a distance-dependent stochastic model. Please also compare the group-settings!
And finally the results of the adjustment
On formulas through noncentral F-distribution received all sizes, except one:
m=3, f=5, b=0.8 a=0.05
I 1.689, at you have an infinity. Why?
I restrict the calculation for values where f-m > m
. The number of suspected outliers should be greater than the remaining degree of freedom. Anyway, you have a leveling network. In this case, only the Kprio and Kpost for m=1
are used.
Tell, whether it is possible to load into the page of a forum drawings and if it is possible how?
Choose a free image hosting service and upload your picture. Copy the URI of your image and use [img]http://example.org/my_image.png[/img]
.
kind regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
almide, Tuesday, 30.04.2013, 13:47 (vor 4225 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hello Mischa
Many thanks for the help, I coped with this part, but still there are a lot of questions.
In the middle of May at us in JAG3D of that that calculated program control manually - a leveling network and a poligonometriya (traverse) - adjustment and quality control on the accuracy and reliability.
Questions (while only leveling):
in the left part of the program in the menu we have 1. Reference Point, 2. Stochastic Point, 3. Datum Point, 4. New Point. I assume that
1 - starting (firm) point, where names and heights of firm points are entered,
4 - number and approximate height of a defined point.
And that such and why 2 and 3?. Whether it is necessary to enter there something at usual adjustment of a leveling network?
What to do if the network with errors of starting (firm) points is adjustment?
In Results for New Point, A is confidential interval?
In Results for Reference Point (and also at me in an example in Stochastic Point and Datum Point) corrections for firm points though it isn't necessary are calculated. What to make that these calculations weren't made, or they there is nothing don't influence, i.e. correction of starting points isn't made?
How these corrections were calculated?
In the same place Tprio and Tpost are calculated. As they were calculated?
It is strange why in New Point influence (de KGKi en MDEi)on defined parameter (I have heights) an expected error of nabla (de GF, en EE) and minimal detectable bias of nabla(a, b) (de GRZW en MDB) aren't calculated?. I consider, and not I one that it very much important sizes for the analysis of reliability of a network as it is one many more important as are spoiled parameters (heights, coordinates) than any measurements by additional influences.
In Report in Reliableness of Observations in Maximum and average influence of relative point location EP, EPavg at you it was calculated as absolyuny value from EP, but it isn't written that isn't absolutely good.
It would be good to place in the field General value for aG. It can be interesting to much.
I am sorry that so many questions. But at us in Belarus I am engaged in reliability only. To talk ask share thoughts there is nobody. So excuse once again.
It isn't obligatory to answer everything immediately.
Yours faithfully and gratitude for the help Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Tuesday, 30.04.2013, 17:45 (vor 4225 Tagen) @ almide
Hi,
sometimes, I'm not sure whether I understand your question in a right way. So, I'm sorry, if I don't answer all your questions completely.
And that such and why 2 and 3?
JAG3D defines four types of points: reference points, stochastic points, datum points and new points. New points are points whose coordinates are unknown. These points will be estimated in the adjustment process. Datums points are new points, too. But in contrast to new points, datum points are defining the geodetic datum of a so-called free network adjustment and they are solving the rank deficit of the normal equation system. Whereas reference points are known points without uncertainties, stochastic points have uncertainties. Therefore, the imperfections of stochastic points are modeled in the stochastic model. During the adjustment process stochastic points get new coordinates, whereas reference points are fixed. Moreover, reference points and stochastic points can be checked by an outlier test.
Type Correction Outliertest New point Yes No Datum point Yes No Stochastic point Yes Yes Reference point No Yes
What to do if the network with errors of starting (firm) points is adjustment?
First of all, start the analysis process with a so-called free network adjustment (using datum points instant of reference/stochastic points). In this analysis step, you have to check your observations (leveling, distances, directions,...) and the a-priori stochastic model. If an observation is flagged as outlier, check this observation carefully. In case of doubt, this observation should be disabled. This process is known as Baarda’s data-snooping.
If no more outlier is detected by the stochastic tests, you can move your datum points to a reference point group or to a stochastic point group. In this analysis step, you can check the connection points of your network. If a reference/stochastic point is wrong, JAG3D will highlight an outlier in the point group. The estimated gross error (denotes by nabla) gives an impression of the error of the point. In case of a small error, you can move your reference points to a stochastic point group and regarding this small derivation as a stochastic process. In this way, you have to define the uncertainties of your "firm" points e.g. 1cm. If the error of the point is too large, you have to move this point to a new point group.
It is strange why in New Point influence on defined parameter an expected error of nabla and minimal detectable bias of nabla(a, b) aren't calculated?
Yes, up to now, nabla(a, b) is not calculated for point groups, maybe in a later version.
In Results for New Point, A is confidential interval?
Yes and alpha is used to estimated the interval.
EP, EPavg at you it was calculated as absolyuny value from EP, but it isn't written that isn't absolutely good.
I think, only the absolute value represents a sensible indication. Anyway, a template system is used to generate the report. Feel free to create your own report from JAG3D.
It would be good to place in the field General value for aG.
The critical value is given. Therefore, the test is more traceable, than with alphaG.
In the same place Tprio and Tpost are calculated. As they were calculated?
regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Wednesday, 15.05.2013, 17:18 (vor 4210 Tagen) @ almide
Hi,
short notice:
It would be good to place in the field General value for aG.
The new version of JAG3D provides (each) alpha in the HTML-report.
regrads
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
Alex , Thursday, 20.06.2013, 17:18 (vor 4174 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hello Michael!
With calculation of characteristics of reliability like all it is clear. But now other problem: how them to use for the analysis of reliability of geodetic networks? In the literature accessible to me again only calculation of characteristics and practically anything is not present about the analysis. Advise as to use, I will be very glad to the help.
Yours faithfully Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Thursday, 20.06.2013, 18:02 (vor 4174 Tagen) @ Alex
Hello Alexander!
But now other problem: how them to use for the analysis of reliability of geodetic networks?
I think, there are a lot of great textbooks, which answered your questions, e.g. Charles D. Ghilani, Paul R. Wolf: Adjustment Computations - Spatial Data Analysis. I also believe, that a textbook, which is written in your native language, would be more helpful to answer your questions than I can do...
kind regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
Alex , Thursday, 20.06.2013, 22:12 (vor 4174 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hello Michael!
In Russian there is 1 textbook of my teacher Markuze where about reliability 0.5 pages but any analysis are written. Wolf Ghilani we have translated the small paragraph about reliability. There only how to calculate. Have translated the paragraph from book Niemeir Ausglechungrechnung... Too only calculations. A bit more but it is scattered under all book at Jäger Klassische und robuste... But about the analysis it is not enough. For example at us such problem: there are 4 points which of height it is necessary to define. We have 4 points with known heights (initial). Defined points and a part of the initial have connected measurements in 6 various networks. How under reliability characteristics to establish what network it is more reliable?
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Saturday, 22.06.2013, 19:59 (vor 4172 Tagen) @ Alex
Hi Alex,
of course, your specific problem is not considered in any textbook. Thus, you have to combine several information from different pages.
How under reliability characteristics to establish what network it is more reliable?
Why aren't you using all observations in on least square adjustment?
In general, a reliable network offers small confidence region (parameter A) and large redundancies of the observations (parameter r).
have a nice weekend
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
Alexander , Wednesday, 20.05.2015, 06:32 (vor 3475 Tagen) @ almide
Sorry for the error:
Hi Michael
Sorry to trouble you, but I have a question.
How do you calculate the lambda and aG in your wonderful solver online for m' more than 1? For m' = 1 all clear. If it is possible in terms of Matlab. Thank you for any help.
Sincerely, Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Wednesday, 20.05.2015, 16:04 (vor 3475 Tagen) @ Alexander
Hi,
as already mentioned, I use the idea proposed by Baarda. An iterative algorithm (in Matlab) is given by Aydin, Demirel (2004), Computation of Baarda’s lower bound of the non-centrality parameter.
regards
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
Alexander , Friday, 26.06.2015, 15:35 (vor 3438 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Hi Michael
Sorry to trouble you, but again there were questions:
1. I can not calculate the alpha(m) for m > 1. I know that for alpha = 0.05, beta = 0.2 and m = 2, alpha (m = 2) = 0.089, and the corresponding quantile k = 2.44. How were they calculated? If it is possible from the viewpoint of Matlab.
2. Is there any example file to adjustment the planned, not large network where measure the angles and lines? The site in the examples I have not found. I would love to see.
3. Thank you for your past support. Written in Matlab itself is not a big procedure for calculating the aG, works well.
Thank you for any help.
Sincerely, Alexander
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Friday, 26.06.2015, 19:05 (vor 3438 Tagen) @ Alexander
Hi,
If it is possible from the viewpoint of Matlab.
Again, an iterative algorithm (in Matlab) is given by Aydin, Demirel (2004). Please contact the authors to get access to their m-Files. I don't have Matlab Code, that I can share.
2. Is there any example file to adjustment the planned, not large network where measure the angles and lines? The site in the examples I have not found. I would love to see.
You can download an example for some days here: example.zip
Have a nice weekend
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences
The theory and practice in JAG3D
Alexander , Friday, 26.06.2015, 20:22 (vor 3438 Tagen) @ MichaeL
Sorry, no time to rest, we have to work.
But Aydin aT is calculated for a global test and m> 1, as you have in the online calculator on the site. For her, I did the procedure in Matlab. it gives the same results as you. I mean, am (m> 1) for the local t-test. How is it calculated?
And more. in the latest versions of your program in the protocol computations were logarithms. What is it and why. never before seen.
Thank you and good luck.
The theory and practice in JAG3D
MichaeL , Bad Vilbel, Friday, 26.06.2015, 22:20 (vor 3438 Tagen) @ Alexander
Hi Alexander,
was the example of a network simulation traceable?
I mean, am (m> 1) for the local t-test. How is it calculated?
You have to use the non-central F-distribution. An algorithm is given by Hahn, Heck, Jaeger, Scheuring (1989/99), Ein Verfahren zur Abstimmung der Signifikanzniveaus für allgemeine Fm,n-verteilte Teststatistiken−Teil I/II, ZfV. As far as I know, you can get the source code (in Fortran), too.
in the latest versions of your program in the protocol computations were logarithms.
It is the so-called p-value (to avoid zero numbers, it is given in logarithmic representation).
have a nice weekend
Micha
--
applied-geodesy.org - OpenSource Least-Squares Adjustment Software for Geodetic Sciences